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Coop Voting Revolution (CVR)

Postby Sonicade » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:20 pm

Cool that works. I still have grand plans for a coop account setup although that probably wouldnt change the voting structure. Have to make some time to implement it.
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Postby organic io » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:08 am

I've well run out of email addresses to use for co-op accounts. Is there any way you could remove the 1 account per address restriction? Or would that skew something? I've got.. (counts).. 4 co-op accounts and plan on doing more of course
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Postby knetter » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:09 am

Sonicade, if you have some spare time for extra SQL exercise :D ... perhaps its an idea to have a new Groups page as menuitem.

When your're logged in, consider the following:
- All members can start a group by adding/removing members from the member-list.
- The starter of the group is the "administrator":
1. He/she can make the group 'open' , or 'closed' resp. all members can join or he/she is the only one who can add/remove members.
2. He/she can close the whole group
3. Email is used for "admin" mail notifications.
- You can use this group as author for submitting songs.
- All group members are unable to vote on their own group or own individual song.
- During voting period, the group-author (as group) is limited to vote on the songs that are submitted by different members than the members of the group. (This is required to keep the balanced voting system working; everybody must vote!). If not voted: disqualify :twisted:
- In the member list you can see a (clickable) list of groups where the member is participating in.

page layout example:
...[Listen][Profiles][Groups]

["Add Group" button (only appears when logged in)]

[Lits of groups]

[next >> | <<prev]

Its alomost like hives!
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Postby Sonicade » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:07 pm

Nice feature list Knetter, that is very similar to the 'grand plans' I had in mind for a proper coop system. Unfortunately I haven't had time to design and implement a system like that yet. :(

With regard to this round, I think the 1st place entry was indeed one of the best tracks so everyone did in fact vote with quality in mind and not just because they were part of a coop.

There does seem like there is potential for imbalance if 10 people make a coop track and then all vote for their coop though.

Are there any reasons to oppose a rule against voting for a coop from a solo account? I can revise the rules to include coop guide lines which would address coop concerns in future rounds.
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Postby organic io » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:48 pm

Sonicade wrote:With regard to this round, I think the 1st place entry was indeed one of the best tracks so everyone did in fact vote with quality in mind and not just because they were part of a coop.

There does seem like there is potential for imbalance if 10 people make a coop track and then all vote for their coop though.

Are there any reasons to oppose a rule against voting for a coop from a solo account? I can revise the rules to include coop guide lines which would address coop concerns in future rounds.


I fully admit to voting for Refive from my solo account. But I did it with 100% integrity, if I thought the song was shit, I wouldn't have voted for it :P
Also I would have felt more guilty for voting on it if it just had been a 2 person co-op. But with 5 people, my part was only 20% contribution so I feel like by voting for it, I was voting for the 80% that other people did :D

So far I don't think we've seen any dishonesty, (with the exception of crosfire). Everyone here seems to play by the rules for the most part.
So.. I don't think we need to revise something that's not broken at this point. (The voting system.) If it becomes apparent that heavy cheating is going on, obviously that account can be disqualified from a round and then rules could be revised as necessary.

If you disagree with me and think I was dishonorable to vote for Refive, please feel free to call me out, I won't mind. :)
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Postby knetter » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:04 pm

IO, the goal is to make coop's smoother. I like to eliminate the fact that you have to create a ghost member for doing a coop; that is just silly.
While designing that, it is easy to add the restrictions (like disable voting as separate member for the coop) since you have the list of members of the group available. I think it is a real addition since some renoise artists are working as group by default. The song of your co-op was great and deserved the 1st place, but not all people can trust honesty so why not benefit from the technique to avoid that feelings?
BTW with "disqualified" (:twisted:) I meant not-approved for final placement, like we have already for now... It just sound nasty :twisted: :P :lol:
Last edited by knetter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby knetter » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:20 pm

Sonicade wrote:Are there any reasons to oppose a rule against voting for a coop from a solo account? I can revise the rules to include coop guide lines which would address coop concerns in future rounds.


Sonicade,
Great that you're always open for improvements of SDC. It is fun to talk about the perfect solution.
I think to keep-out the hard feelings about co-op's, rules of co-op's must be waterproof. To automate this you will need to have the members that are collaborating before you can do some logics and rule processing. Therefore you will need the group of members (...and it saves zombie members (sorry IO :D). The rule that a member of a co-op cannot vote for the co-op is quite reasonable don't you think?
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Postby organic io » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:16 pm

knetter wrote:Therefore you will need the group of members (...and it saves zombie members (sorry IO :D). The rule that a member of a co-op cannot vote for the co-op is quite reasonable don't you think?


Don't get me wrong, I dislike zombie members just as much as anyone. I agree with the part about group consolidation. I think Sonicade does too, it's just a matter of him not having enough time and resources to impliment it properly. Co-ops are a small percentage of the song submission so far so he's been tending to other more important things, like making sure that the site works when his server upgrades software and breaks everything :)

But I am also worried about the statistical effect of members not being able to vote for their own co-ops and vice versa.
The best way to exemplify a potential statistical problem is to use an exaggeration, so let me pose a hypothetical situation here:

Let's say there is another round with a 5 person mega co-op. The 5 members of the mega also enter solo entries. So far we have 6 entries.
Let's say, for whatever reason, only 2 other people entered that round. (There have been rounds with only 5 or 8 entries total).
So the round has 8 entries total. Let's assume that the mega co-op is objectively the best song by all standards.

Only 2 people are allowed to vote for the mega co-op. Everybody else besides the mega co-op is allowed to vote for all other entries. This means that the mega-co op is destined to lose or at least not get anywhere near the top. It also means the 2 that did not participate in the mega co-op have a greater chance of being at the top, because the mega co-op is forced to vote for them and not the other people. In fact, this wouldn't even work because the mega co-op wouldn't be able to legally vote for 5 entries. What would happen then?

Obviously, this statistical problem becomes less significant the greater the number of entries per round. If we had 100 entries average per round I wouldn't even bring up this point. But averaging around 15, I think the effect is significant enough to skew the outcome

I don't think it matters too much though, we're all in this for fun.
There's not really a clean solution, it's all just coming up with what fits best.
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Postby Directionless » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:33 pm

knetter wrote:The rule that a member of a co-op cannot vote for the co-op is quite reasonable don't you think?


That logic makes the most sense to me. Particularly because a co-op can be made up of any number of people. I didn't vote for the Psycle co-op at all. It's not a question of integrity to me, but rather, a conflict of interest. :)

(And BTW, the Refive entry was totally deserving IMO so don't anyone take this wrong pulease!)
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Postby Directionless » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:47 pm

organic io wrote:Let's say there is another round with a 5 person mega co-op. The 5 members of the mega also enter solo entries. So far we have 6 entries.
Let's say, for whatever reason, only 2 other people entered that round. (There have been rounds with only 5 or 8 entries total).
So the round has 8 entries total. Let's assume that the mega co-op is objectively the best song by all standards.

Only 2 people are allowed to vote for the mega co-op. Everybody else besides the mega co-op is allowed to vote for all other entries. This means that the mega-co op is destined to lose or at least not get anywhere near the top. It also means the 2 that did not participate in the mega co-op have a greater chance of being at the top, because the mega co-op is forced to vote for them and not the other people. In fact, this wouldn't even work because the mega co-op wouldn't be able to legally vote for 5 entries. What would happen then?


One point that may slightly counter-balance the statistical problem is that (as was pointed out by an entrant in this round) in theory, a tune has a larger potential for greatness with more hands working on it. So the statistical challenge could be considered a way of upping the stakes for the win in those cases.

In other words, a systematically natural way of making the victory potentially harder to achieve for a co-op group that has the potential to make a greater song.

That being said. This is indeed all for fun. And while we are dragging out the logistical snafus, i'll mention another minor one: unofficial co-ops. As of late there have been single account entries that have actually been a collaboration of some fashion, be that help with mixing or otherwise. A big deal? No. Something to create a new logic rule for? No, impossible.

It's just life. The more analytical we get, the harder it becomes to make everything "seem fair".

But at least in regard to mega co-ops, there does seem to be an opportunity to enhance voting logic. :)
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Postby chunter » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:08 pm

If you don't mind a new person chiming in, because we aren't doing this for anything but pride I'd like to say firstly that I think the best song won the competition for round 28, so the way the compo is scored is fine.

If coop tunes posed a problem to the scoring, TeamPsycle would have finished much higher, and besides, even if coops take over all compos the individuals would still be able to say, "Mine placed highest among the individuals' tunes."
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Postby Sonicade » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:30 am

This is definitely the dialog I was thinking of when considering the pros and cons. Thanks Organic IO and Knetter for weighing in on the issue.

When you enter a coop and a solo you're effectively increasing your chances of getting voted on two fold. It does seem fair that the coop would have marginal handicap since the members of the coop are seeking individual votes as well. For example, if they didn't enter solo entries the coop would have an increased chance at winning.

I appreciate everyone's input and discussion on this. It really helps in making sure we set down the fairest rules. :)
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Postby knetter » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:43 am

Fisrt of all, I think there is no objectiveness for self-made songs. Its in the mans nature to be proud of its creations. But...that is another discussion (which can be skipped by tighter rules).

organic io wrote:But I am also worried about the statistical effect of members not being able to vote for their own co-ops and vice versa.
The best way to exemplify a potential statistical problem is to use an exaggeration, so let me pose a hypothetical situation here:

Let's say there is another round with a 5 person mega co-op. The 5 members of the mega also enter solo entries. So far we have 6 entries.

Let's say, for whatever reason, only 2 other people entered that round. (There have been rounds with only 5 or 8 entries total).
So the round has 8 entries total. Let's assume that the mega co-op is objectively the best song by all standards.

Only 2 people are allowed to vote for the mega co-op. Everybody else besides the mega co-op is allowed to vote for all other entries. This means that the mega-co op is destined to lose or at least not get anywhere near the top. It also means the 2 that did not participate in the mega co-op have a greater chance of being at the top, because the mega co-op is forced to vote for them and not the other people. In fact, this wouldn't even work because the mega co-op wouldn't be able to legally vote for 5 entries. What would happen then?


The song must be rated by others. The co-op sees 2 individuals (the rest are members of the co-op), so they can only give 2 votes (1st and 2nd?) to both individuals for qualification. Unfortunate, but the same problem excists for multi-entries by a single member: Also not able to vote for his/her own song.

I think there is no waterproof solution for multiple entries per member. Also to save Sonicade a lot of conditional and very complex checks, I think the only option is to allow only one entry per person (it will save a lot of these corner-cases, what when you have co-ops with members from other co-ops? Arrgh!!!! :? ).
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Postby Sonicade » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:47 pm

So until a proper coop system can be implemented, I added the revised rules for coops in Rule #8. Having read this thread it seems like barring solo voting on coops is the fairest method. If it poses an issue we can re-examine it.
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Postby organic io » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:51 pm

Since there is no group registration system yet like Knetter suggested, does this just mean you will have to watch the votes to make sure nobody from a coop votes on the coop from their individual account?

I also suggest you add it to the rules that the coop can't vote for the individual entries, just so the question doesn't come up later :)
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