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Do you think render to sample should be allowed?

Yes
8
67%
No
4
33%
 
Total votes : 12

My aversion of render-to-sample in opensource compo's

My aversion of render-to-sample in opensource compo's

Postby knetter » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:29 pm

Render to sample makes the song nontransparent. I think, also to improve that listeners can learn from the used techniques, render-to-sample is killing. Another thing is that it is a way to obfuscates any cheats, because it is simply not checkable.
IMHO we should reconsider the allowance of the render-to-sample feature.
What do you think?
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Postby organic io » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:55 pm

I remember when the compo first started, render to sample wasn't allowed. But someone asked about it and Sonicade reconsidered and then allowed it.

I don't see any problem with it. I think it should be allowed mostly because there are some people who like to make a drum pattern, render it and then use it as a loop for beatslicing manipulation.
But it's good to open the table for discussion. Perhaps a poll?

And someone who cheats is not going to have enough skills to win anyway. And they will have to live with the guilt of cheating or in fear that they may get caught.

Most people are honest and do this for fun/in the spirit of good competition. So far the only person I know of who has really cheated has been crosfire... Who has entered 2, sometimes 3 entries in the same round before we finally realized what was going on. I wouldn't be surprised if he was still entering under some obscure names
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Postby knetter » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:17 pm

I know you can make nice effect with it! But nobody can see how you'd made it, while that is what I find very interesting about the compo.

Lets see what other people think.
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Postby organic io » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:59 pm

Poll added :)
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Postby paulnewns » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:21 am

I completely understand your point of view with regards to this.
I personally use it for rendering vocals with effects. eg vocoder, melodyne.
I think it can be useful as a tool for people who have a low spec pc.
They can still use effects on a channel, render and free up some cpu %.
Most people who enter this comp do it in the spirit it was intentioned.
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Postby tenfour » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:26 am

I agree with knetter.
forbidding it is not the kind of thing that will stomp on people's creativity. this feature does allow people to hide anything they feel like doing to the track. if you don't have enough CPU to run your fx, then get a faster cpu or use less fx. having insufficient hardware is not a reason to allow this feature.

it's true; i always feel a little disappointed when i see rendered samples in sdcompo tunes.
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Postby paulnewns » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:36 am

This is purely a personal issue but if we were not allowed to use render, how would this tie in with vocal usage?
As I generally don't use it for anything other than this.
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Postby keith303 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:02 am

do i think it should be allowed?
all the way!

it is a native feature of renoise. i feel trimmed enough using only the internal DSPs / compo-samples, so i don't see any reason to cripple the situation even further.
to me, sounddesign and sample mangling plays an essential role in the process of creating a song.
rendering a selection to sample to furthermore work and play with it feels like a creative operation to me.

i think you shouldn't worry too much about this feature in terms of "cheating". i for myself feel a lot more concerned when i extract some rar/zip files and see VST plugin dll's like "blockfish" etc. pop up in my filebrowser, even though it's not a VST round.
but at the end of the day, i don't really care, even though i'd also loved to use them.

to sum this up: this is a music competition which is not about money or profit in general.. i think we shouldn't see things so strict, because the most important thing for me is to create good music which is joyful to listen to - and if one of the native tracker features allows or simplifies this intention, it should be used.
so as long as nobody claims to have rendered (for example) an amen break to sample, even though there were no single shot sources for it, i wouldn't be too concerned.
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Postby organic io » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:23 am

keith303 wrote: i for myself feel a lot more concerned when i extract some rar/zip files and see VST plugin dll's like "blockfish"


I have to confess I accidentally left a vst effect in my file this round. But it is not being played back in the submission XRNS. You can see my full disclosure agreement in my comments!

paulnewns wrote:This is purely a personal issue but if we were not allowed to use render, how would this tie in with vocal usage?
As I generally don't use it for anything other than this.


Dude it won't affect vocals at all. Vocals are handled differently. We can use external editors effects and everything on them. So how is somebody going to know if you used the render to pattern, or split it in soundforge? It won't matter. So don't worry. Even if the feature is banned, you will still be able to use it for vocals. :)

I take that back ...
Unless there is something else playing in the render along with the vocals (drums for example). But who would do that anyway?
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Postby keith303 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:26 pm

organic io wrote:
keith303 wrote: i for myself feel a lot more concerned when i extract some rar/zip files and see VST plugin dll's like "blockfish"


I have to confess I accidentally left a vst effect in my file this round. But it is not being played back in the submission XRNS. You can see my full disclosure agreement in my comments!


i noticed, but wasn't relating to that. what i meant were the psycle entries bundled with VSTs. ;)
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Postby organic io » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:37 pm

keith303 wrote:

i noticed, but wasn't relating to that. what i meant were the psycle entries bundled with VSTs. ;)


Interesting. I rarely load the modules and never the Psycle ones so ... I wasn't aware this practice was going on. Wish someone would have left it in their song comments
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Postby Airmann » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:29 pm

Although I almost never use rendering, I vote for freedom - means: allow it !

First, I like most of the rule constraints we have here at SDCompo. I think it's generally a good idea to have fewer stuff one has to get along with. Just because of this contraints I had to dig deeper and deeper into Renoise and had to learn more about the basic principles of the internal effects and possibilities.

On the other hand some limitations lead also to limited results. E.g. the quality of some internal effects is a real limitation especially the quality of the reverbs. I just don't like the metallic sound of mpreverb2 and I can see no way how I could improve this.

A further by far more serious limitation is that besides Vocals no other WAV recordings are allowed. E.g. I really would love to Record E-Guitar and Acoustic Guitar into the songs. WHY IS IT ALLOWED TO MAKE MUSIC WITH MY MOUTH, WHEN IT IS FORBIDDEN TO MAKE MUSIC WITH MY HANDS ? The result is, that the general style of songs here is mostly synthetic / electro / dance whatever. The human feeling of instruments is missing. Is this good ?

IMO it should be the goal to provide as much artistic freedom as possible and at the same time keep the most possible compatibility and portability level as possible. Means: everybody should be able to open and play the songs.

Since rendering seems to be an important artistic freedom for some people I wouldn't forbid it. It's not against compatibility.

Regarding inspection and learning:
Of course it's cool if you can learn from stuff. But hey: Mostly there's enough stuff to learn from left, even if a part is rendered.
A possible solution for this would be to include the original track
with notes as muted track. I did this for the Xmas round.

I'm not afraid of cheating. If someone with no honour needs to do this, then he can't be that good anyway. Shall he do it ! I don't care ! Moreover people will always find ways for cheating if they want to. E.g. one could alter/rework some samples an none of us would notice it !

So guys ... relax, don't do it !
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Postby mutilus » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:59 pm

I'm the one that used Blockfish. It's a VST compressor. I've included VST effects in a few of the past rounds. Sorry, I thought it was allowed in the rules -- I remember a discussion a while allowing the use of basic VST effects such as reverb and compression in Psycle and IT etc. Not much use just mentioning it though, let me see if I can find the thread in particular...

I really didn't intend to break the rules with that -- I'm only here to get comments on my music, not cheat and try to win. I hope the fact I included the VSTs in the entry pack for all to see sort of proves I'm not trying to hide something, if that makes sense..

Anyway.. seriously, apologies if its outside of the rules.
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Postby mutilus » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:00 pm

This was the thread about external VSTs: http://forums.sdcompo.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0
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Postby organic io » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:08 pm

I almost forgot about that thread! When Keith mentioned it, I thought he was talking about a vsti, not an effect.

Mut, you are not breaking any rules at all, because Sonicad deemed it OK to do this for non Renoisers.

Carry on :D
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