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Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Directionless » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:54 am

Yes, I'd rather run the 4-bits per channel. I'd be happy to use the ymVST. I've used Triforce before and it seemed pretty limited but would be a nice addition to sounds rather than the main source.

And yes, opening the option for a Sid emulator is a good idea for those that want to go that route.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:22 am

Optimally I'd like to include 3 synths

So Nil, what do you think is the best compromise for the SID since you said you tried them all? And we'll just go with that.

As an aside, when I chose Triforce, I didn't know that Robin Williams was a big Zelda fan and even named his daughter Zelda.
I named a cat Zelda once :-D

P.S.. What is the difference between putting the 4bit on the master versus each track? I thought it would be the same, just simpler to put it on the master?
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:55 pm

Regarding SID emulation:

On the dimension of simplicity MicroSynth is the clear winner (and has been made by the legendary Chris Huelsbeck). However, no glide, no arp (this one hurts I think).

On the dimension of fullness Dream64 is the winner I think, it's definitely a good piece of plugin.

I'd go with Dream64, it has a number of patches for those who don't want to fiddle with it.

Regarding bit crushing: this got me thinking, it's actually not obvious whether 4-bit per channel or 4-bit on master would hurst quality the most. I guess the only way to tell is to experiment. Also perhaps a filter after the 4-bit crushing should be allowed. Those kind of filters are usually built-in (it is in Paula at least). Or maybe no bit-crushing, that's a tough one! Or maybe 5-bits on the master... It's too late for me to try, I'll experiment with that tomorrow if nobody does before.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:56 pm

I couldn't help but try (and cooked a mini chiptune for the occasion), I think you'll agree that 4-bit crushing is too much

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... _crush.wav
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... _crush.wav
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... _crush.wav

based on that experiment I think no crushing is necessary, 4/5 channels is way enough of a constraint, I'd say even, no effect restriction is necessary. Just my humble onion tough.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:00 pm

BTW, the bit crushing versions just add more noise and unwanted frequencies, which reminds me more the Atari ST trying to play Amiga modules rather than chiptunes. Soundchips don't have that much bit crushing going on I think.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:33 pm

Also, it seems 1-bit crushing for performances is too harsh. I think 4-bit would be fine actually, it's about what pre-Amiga chipsounds can do. Say 4-bit, 11KHz to be faithful.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Directionless » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:04 pm

Yeah, based on your examples (thanks for that) bit-crushing seems pretty pointless to do on chip-style vsts. Now if we were using something more dynamic as the sound source, it would make more sense.

As much as we want to support the chip theme of this round, if you throw in things that will artificially make it sound crappier, it might deter more participation. I'd rather have more entries and less restrictions, while still going for the goal of a chip-sounding compo.

My 2 cents. Btw, nice demo A-lin. :) Boy, I am worried to make something so good. I haven't made a real chip tune since this:

http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=61593 :P
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:41 pm

What about 8 bit crush on master and 2 bit for vocals?

Edit: I'm about to do a little test, will post it soon

OK, I'm really glad we did this test. I don't know HOW Gilli did the 1 bit vocals before, basically in my simple test, anything less than 4 bit is unusable.

here's my tests:

http://www.filedropper.com/bitcrush-nocrush
http://www.filedropper.com/bitcrush-4bit
http://www.filedropper.com/bitcrush-2bit

From this I conclude: any vocals less than 4 bit cannot have ANY dynamics, i.e. they must be as close to 0db as possible throughout the entire clip. I guess you would have to use some kind of brickwall limiter on them first.

1 bit was almost nothing, with just a little blip during the loudest part of the singing.

Anyway. I'm good with 8 bit on the master and 4 bit on the vocal. What you guys think and then I'll get this round started for reallllllll
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Directionless » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:27 pm

Sounds good.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:03 am

You can have excellent 1-bit sound quality but you need extremely high sample rate (+ some high freq noise I believe). Renoise bit-crusher seems to limit the sample rate to 22KHz.

Anyway, the new requirements are fine by me.

Regarding FXs? I think bit-crush + 4/5 channels is enough of a limitation. For instance one should be allowed to apply a filter after the bitcrushing to soften the master, etc.

What do you guys say?
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:37 am

a-lin wrote:You can have excellent 1-bit sound quality but you need extremely high sample rate (+ some high freq noise I believe). Renoise bit-crusher seems to limit the sample rate to 22KHz.

Anyway, the new requirements are fine by me.

Regarding FXs? I think bit-crush + 4/5 channels is enough of a limitation. For instance one should be allowed to apply a filter after the bitcrushing to soften the master, etc.

What do you guys say?


Sounds good. I promise I will get this thing rolling this weekend.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:32 am

Great!

Do you guys want to advertize it?

I personally volunteer to send messages to all chiptune or such composers I follow on soundcloud.

Any other ideas, reddit, etc?
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Directionless » Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:45 pm

That would be awesome. Of course, I did just realize it might be a hard sell if they don't use Renoise. I was thinking about this from the standpoint of using another tracker, in my case, Psycle. How would I bitcrush without a 3rd party plugin?

Maybe by including a freeware bitcrusher vste in the round pack?

http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2012/03/09/bpb-freeware-studio-best-free-bitcrusher-vstau-plugins/
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