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Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:22 pm

OK, we are talking about doing a "chip" round for round 86. There seems to be some divide over whether we should go oldschool (actual emulated chips only) or allow newschool trackers (Renoise, Psycle, Sunvox, etc).

I vote that we use trackers which simulate or emulate actual old sound chipsets, 1993 and earlier, this would include SID, NES, Ad-Lib, Genesis, SNES, etc. My reasoning is that if we allow newer trackers with all these FX, it will be possible to create massive soundscapes that aren't really in the spirit of a chip compo. Let's keep it simple and oldschool :)

My suggestion is that we go through the list of trackers here: [url]woolyss.com/chipmusic-chiptrackers.php[/url]
and pick which ones are "allowed", compile a list and nothing else shall be allowed.

Thoughts?
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:43 pm

P.S... SNES might be too advanced. Maybe the cutoff should be between Genesis and SNES, i.e. around 1990

???
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:41 pm

Here's my humble list from http://woolyss.com/chipmusic-chiptrackers.php

Adlib Tracker 2
AHX
Arkos Tracker
Beepola
BoyScout
Craptracker 2
CyberTracker
Ditty Editor
FamiTracker
GoatTracker
HivelyTracker
klystrack
Little Sound Dj
M4G Tracker
maxYMiser
MilkyTracker
Mod2PSG2
Musetracker
MusicMon
Nerdtracker 2
NesTracker
NTRQ
Odin Tracker
Polly Tracker
RASTER Music Tracker
Synder
TFM Music Maker
VIC-Tracker
Vortex Tracker

I'm stiff not sure about MilkyTracker, klystrack and Adlib Tracker II, but if no samples are allowed, other than drawing then I think MilkyTracker qualifies. As for Adlib Tracker II, it's such an awesome tracker that I find it hard to refuse.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:44 pm

BTW, we could go even further and only allow trackers that run under an emulator, no Windows, Linux or Mac software allowed. I personally wouldn't mind, but maybe that's gonna turn off too many people.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:46 pm

We definitely need to advertize this round. I'm not sure where, on reddit or something.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Carbonthief » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:22 pm

^ Yeah definitely advertise that round on the chiptunes subreddit.

Some people mentioned they really wanted to use Renoise, how about we allow it, but they have to restrict themselves to the limitations of a particular chip. Like if they want to do NES but with Renoise they can only use 5 channels, 2 pulse, 1 tri, 1 noise, and 1 1-bit sample.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Directionless » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:24 pm

Are these submission entries going to be in source only? Or will every one that is accepted be capable of writing .wav out to disk? Otherwise there will be no mp3/oggs unless everyone has gear to record out to. Which could be asking a lot for some.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Carbonthief » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:29 am

That's true I forgot about that. I don't think goattracker can render.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:34 am

Banning Renoise and such forces people to move out of their confort zone, explore something else. Just saying...

Regarding rendering I don't know about Windows but on Linux is should be no problem:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/171287/h ... put-device

Now if that's a really vintage machine, then you're gonna have record its output. How great is that! :)
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:46 am

Yea, I'd say include source file mandatory, render if possible. If someone is not able to render then I should be able to render or record the entries for them. As long as I can get it loaded in a tracker or emulator, I can record the output of my soundcard with my Zoom recorder, if for example the tracker doesn't have wav export.

This brings up another question: The user needs to be able to submit the source file itself, not just an emulator savestate. I think this might exclude some of the native trackers ... Not sure. But I remember when we did one of the chip compos on the forums, I used NTRQ and I had a hell of a time exporting the source file so I just cut some corners and uploaded the emulator savestate. I bet nobody even examined my source.

This is starting to get complicated, but I think it will still be worth it and an interesting challenge for the community :)
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:10 am

a-lin wrote:Here's my humble list from http://woolyss.com/chipmusic-chiptrackers.php

Adlib Tracker 2
AHX
Arkos Tracker
Beepola
BoyScout
Craptracker 2
CyberTracker
Ditty Editor
FamiTracker
GoatTracker
HivelyTracker
klystrack
Little Sound Dj
M4G Tracker
maxYMiser
MilkyTracker
Mod2PSG2
Musetracker
MusicMon
Nerdtracker 2
NesTracker
NTRQ
Odin Tracker
Polly Tracker
RASTER Music Tracker
Synder
TFM Music Maker
VIC-Tracker
Vortex Tracker

I'm stiff not sure about MilkyTracker, klystrack and Adlib Tracker II, but if no samples are allowed, other than drawing then I think MilkyTracker qualifies. As for Adlib Tracker II, it's such an awesome tracker that I find it hard to refuse.


Here's my list

Adlib Tracker 2
AHX
Arkos Tracker
Beepola
BoyScout
Craptracker 2
CyberTracker
Ditty Editor
FamiTracker
GoatTracker
HivelyTracker
klystrack
M4G Tracker
maxYMiser
Mod2PSG2
Musetracker
MusicMon
Nerdtracker 2 (NT2)
NesTracker
NTRQ
Odin Tracker
RASTER Music Tracker (RMT)
*Reality Adlib Tracker
*Sid Duzz It (SDI)
*Sound-Tracker
*SQ-Tracker
*STarKos
Synder
TFM Music Maker
VIC-Tracker
Vortex Tracker


* By ones that weren't in your list for some reason?

I think it would be much easier to just say use any tracker on that list except certain ones.

So my votes for exclusion:

-Little Sound Dj (LSDj) --- need a cartridge ? Who the hell is gonna have the equipment to play the source file
-Polly Tracker - Loads 8 bit samples
-Milkytracker - Loads samples, and drawn samples are really not the same as chip emulation anyway, this is also why I feel like Renoise shouldn't be used
-Sunvox - By far the most powerful tracker on this list and should not be allowed. Just because it has internal generators does not make it a chip tracker. wtf ?
-klystrack - If it loads samples ???


Basically my thinking is: anything that uses samples should be excluded.

The only argument to the contrary I can think of is when Gilli made a sweet NES song with full vocals on the 1 bit noise channel, that was AWESOME. So maybe the only samples allowed would be vocals, and they have to be 1 bit on any tracker that supports it... ? Since I'm not sure it is possible to bitcrush on the afforementioned excluded trackers, then the only format which would allow 1 bit samples would probably be NES, which would give it an unfair advantage, so maybe 1 bit vocal samples should not be allowed.

Wow I'm just running around in circles now... Somebody give me some feedback before I keep rambling more....

Edit: Oh dear, isn't there some obscure way to play samples on SID by exploiting the aliasing or something like that .... geez, I guess if people are smart enough to figure out how to put vocals in their chip song they should be allowed to do it :P

Edit 2: What if any of the trackers except Sunvox is allowed, but if it allows samples, then the only samples that can be used are vocals, and if the tracker does not play the samples back at 1 bit, then you have to dither them down to 1 bit (and then back to 8 bit?) before you import them into the tracker. <---- :)

Please somebody weigh in on this, I'm feeling a bit manic today and I could probably go on chasing my own tail for another hour if I don't stop me now :mrgreen:
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby organic io » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:30 am

Sorry, one last thing...

Here's how I strongly feel about this:

*No Renoise
*No Sunvox
*No LSDJ because it requires cartridge
*Every other tracker on that list is fair game
*Vocals allowed but only if they are 1 bit
*No personal performances
*The only DSP allowed should be reverb.
*If your tracker doesn't have built in reverb, you are allowed to add reverb in a 3rd party program after rendering, such as Reaper/audacity. You could even record live reverb in a cathedral or tiled bathroom if you were feeling ambitious, which I'm not :)



This ensures a pretty level playing field for all. Sounds gooood? :)
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby chunter » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:17 pm

In a round like this, I'd want to use Deflemask most, though I'd probably use famitracker if you don't want to add it.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby a-lin » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:34 pm

Deflemask looks really cool. I'm for including it.

Regarding the use the samples. If the tracker is emulating actual vintage soundchips, like say Deflemask, it's not giving such a huge advantage I think. So I basically wouldn't mind. But then it poses the question of what samplepack, etc. I think vocals or performance could simply be allowed too, as long as the trackers are sufficiently constrained then there needs no other rules I would say.

Organic IO, thanks for completing the list (how could I forget STarKos!).

Regarding Polly Tracker, yes it can load 8-bit samples, but it runs on C64, only 3 voices (apparently mixes in 4 or 8 bit), this is a serious limitation. This could totally be allowed IMO (if samples are allowed in the first place).

I guess, I'd put a limit at MilkyTracker, anything at this level of better is not allowed.
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Re: Upcoming Round 86 discussion

Postby Directionless » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:15 pm

chunter wrote:In a round like this, I'd want to use Deflemask most, though I'd probably use famitracker if you don't want to add it.


I second that, chunter.
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